I completely understand his confusion! There is so much bad science being sold to us about global warming, oh....I'm sorry...the new term is climate change.....since global warming isn't happening. Yes, it's confusing. Yes, things are changing. Does it mean that we are destroying the planet? Not according to God. I do agree we need to be wise and take care of our environment, but I do believe we are overestimating our ability to affect what God has created and sustains. Many in our culture don't trust God, so when things look difficult the weight of "fixing it" is all on us...we must "save our planet!" Well, excuse me, but what arrogance! If you believe what God says he has promised to be sovereign and maintain our day and night, planting and harvesting, summer and winter until he is finished with this universe. If all of us went "green" and lowered our "carbon footprint" as low as possible we would still make little impact on a planet that God is caring for....so what do we do? Conserve, save gas when you can, recycle, carpool, drive a smaller car, and trust the Lord who said HE controls and sustains our planet and environment.
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19 comments:
You might release too much carbon with all those feathers you're rustling! :-)
Great thoughts.
yeah, I know, but it's the only place I get to vent and say what I want. Nice photo by the way. What a great looking family. How are you doing?
test
“Does it mean that we are destroying the planet? Not according to God.” Where do you get this from? Is there a particular Bible verse? If so whatever you are paraphrasing I think is going to be a big stretch although I might be wrong. I’m very curious though to see what you are quoting from and am ready to stand corrected.
Concerning this post:
Relative arguing that could also come from the same Christian circles as you:
“Man’s behavior does effect God’s creation and can ruin things or even destroy it.” Look at the original creation of man, the Garden of Eden, and man’s sin. What happened to it?”
Should you allow your world view to interpret science? Should you allow science to interpret your world view? Does your view of science and your world view need to coincide?
It seems somewhat ironic to say that we are not harming the planet but then turn around and say we should be good stewards anyway.
Somewhat of a separate issue:
What is your opinion about whether religious authorities should blog concerning current events, politics, and pop culture?
I know and am sure you know to quite a few religious leaders that dab into this field.
An older example:
I personally remember someone who once criticized the Dixie Chicks for using their “music” popularity / famousness to criticize George W. Bush. This person emphasized how this was bad and an abuse of their famousness. What is your opinion?
I myself personally think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and SHOULD have their own opinion, but what about sharing it through one’s blog where one’s followers is fed. Do they need to be given a religious view on these topics and conversations that should be guided by the church?
If so, do you think this could line up as Christ + something else. (Doctrine taught at many churches concerning the addition of “extra stuff” because people have moved on from Christ for possibly a great deal of reasons)
I would argue that you could say your post today is somewhat related to your profession even though I don’t agree with what you posted.
Anonymous,
thanks for your questions and honesty. as you noted in my post I did say that we should destroy our environment, but that we should try to be good stewards of what we have and where we live, but here's the point that we may disagree on- I believe that what God says in the bible is true, and that he can be trusted. in numerous places in the bible he maintains he is sovereign and will keep this old planet going until a day we have yet to see. I believe that when he says he is sustaining all things that this is really true. if we are not on the same page here, then scripture references will not satisfy.
to your question about pastors, religious leaders commenting on culture or politics- as citizens we have every right to voice our opinions, but as leaders in a portion of our culture we also have to be careful what we say. We are in a very unusual country where we, as individuals, can make a difference. No matter what your politics or religion or lack of one we each can make a difference and should...but on my part I am very careful to not discuss politics specifically. I will mention issues, but not individuals. That's a great part of our country, and it's a liberty that most in the world do not have.
you took a lot of time to write, so let me try to honestly answer your questions- would you give me some clarity on what you would like to know beyond these comments.
thanks for your thoughts.
sorry, anonymous, I left this comment without comment. you said,
It seems somewhat ironic to say that we are not harming the planet but then turn around and say we should be good stewards anyway.
That's not what I said. My point is that we cannot destroy the planet...based on my earlier comments, but that does not exempt us from being good stewards. In other words I don't have permission to waste and destroy just because I believe God is in charge. We still are called to be good stewards.
OK everyone, lets throw in the towel and do whatever we want when we want because God is in control and he will not let us do anything that compromises his plan. Party at my house tonight!
Does it help you to completely misquote me and miss my point?
You just wrote,
"OK everyone, lets throw in the towel and do whatever we want when we want because God is in control and he will not let us do anything that compromises his plan. Party at my house tonight!"
Now, does that make you feel better? I said nothing of the sort! Are you even reading what I'm trying to say or are not really interested in a dialogue???
I do not believe that we can do whatever we want, nor did I ever say that. shame on you...now, if you want to be honest and really talk about this I'm available, but your words were not mine....make fun if you don't understand, but if you want to discuss this do be honest and let me know....
“I did say that we should destroy our environment” I think you have a small typo here. You meant “didn’t say” right?
I agree with what God says in the Bible is true as well. So, here we are “on the same page” but I don’t align I’m sure on some of your other view points, I’m sure. I know you’re a busy guy and you have lots of work to do, but if you have time, would you mind finding me the verse you’re pointing to? I’d like to see what you’re paraphrasing and the context that it comes from. I can’t think of any verses where he is particularly talking about the very planet being sustained but I think it could and is likely to exist; I just can’t seem to remember!!!
“to your question about pastors, religious leaders commenting on culture or politics- as citizens we have every right to voice our opinions”
You’re absolutely right! The US Constitution guarantees that right. I’m talking about what Christians often call a “higher” law the Bible / church doctrine. As religious leaders / spokesmen for God should we incorporate these opinions into our platform of how we reach people? Does it dilute the true message or distract?
Blogger. These aren’t personal attacks but rather me trying to challenge some of your viewpoints and at the same time, I promise you I have a mind in search and I am very, very open to being corrected and in search myself. I’m talking with you not because I have my mind made up and because I want to hear that I’m right. I’m interested in exploring some holes here in this argument.
That being said, (I INSIST what I’m about to tell you has nothing to do with you, my friend!) Why is it that many religious leaders are quick to say that they are sinners and make mistakes and are not perfect but very rarely seed arguments or say, “I was wrong in this area of my thinking or theology.” We often talk about non-believers being very closed-minded and not open to change but I think it goes both ways, often. With many religious leaders no matter how well one lays out the facts the game is over before you ever even began. They just won’t change.
“I do believe we are overestimating our ability to affect what God has created and sustains.” I think this is very easy to contradict. One small example… look at the delicate biosphere. Animals are becoming extinct due to man’s affect on creation.
"…save our planet!" Well, excuse me, but what arrogance!”
Is it really arrogance to try and save / maintain / preserve the planet that God gave us by trying to be good stewards?
In general this idea that people make “small impacts” (your comment was referenced towards the planet I know) but also seems more like often secular pessimistic mainstream. Few Christians (I think) would argue that one can have only a small, minute impact.
By the way the anonymous post concerning throwing in the towel was not mine. I’ll try to register a blogger account so I don’t get confused.
If there is one thing I have learned it is that people will always see things the way they want to see them and argue to convince others that they are right and others are wrong. No offence, but pastors are no different because they are people just like everyone else in this world. We all see the world through our own lens and we substantiate our opinions with various things, including our interpretation of the Bible. Usually, this is someone’s ultimate defense, "but the Bible says". Well, the Bible says a lot of things and much of it is left open to the interpretation of the reader. But, it makes the person feel better and more secure in their opinion if they think God is on their side via scripture. (This is one reason we have hundreds of Christian denominations)
My opinion is that we should learn to accept different ideas and the people they come from. We should have a fluid and flexible perspective on these things and say something like "well, that’s not how I particularly see things but it is a possibility, interesting", and then we move on together with love and respect and lack of judgment.
Let us get off of our pride throne and insistence that we are always right. It really inhibits our ability to live a truly loving life, because when we argue our points we are only loving ourselves.
But that’s just my opinion, people can think as they wish. Good luck.
PS..the prior post was written by me, JH, not anon. from above.
Anonymous,
re- “I did say that we should destroy our environment” I think you have a small typo here. You meant “didn’t say” right?
YES! Thanks for catching my mistake. I did reread that, and didn't catch my typo. Yes, I meant, We should NOT destroy our environment. Thanks for helping me not say something REALLY stupid!
Ok, to your question on scripture- I will tell you the reference in a moment, but here are the two views I'm trying to define:
1. Caring for our environment BECAUSE I'm a steward of what God has given me, and it's proper to care for God's creation. He is Lord of it all, and has entrusted it to us for a time, it' our job to be good stewards and care for it BECAUSE we answer to God as our Lord.
2. Caring for the environment BECAUSE if we don't WE will destroy it and then all life will cease.
What I have defined are two different people doing the same basic thing- caring for our world and being "green" for two completely different reasons. That is the difference I was describing in my original post. What I also wanted to note is the fact that we don’t have to live in fear, but know that we have a sovereign creator and Lord who is able to care for us. If I don’t trust God, then fear can be a prime motivator because it’s all on ME to fix this! It’s an overwhelming task if you leave God out of the picture, and you will do it for the wrong reasons. I hope that clarifies that point a little.
Now, I am not going to paraphrase any passage of scripture, but will quote what God says, so here are a few passages that talk about the fact that God is sovereign over creation and will sustain it UNTIL the day he is finished with it (note last reference in series), but please know that these scriptures still must be balanced with our responsibility to be good stewards UNTIL he comes back. The fact that the bible teaches a finish to all we know does not give anyone permission to destroy it now. Ok, here are the verses- Romans 1:20, Col. 1:16-17, 2 Peter 3:8-13, Rev. 4:11, these are just a few, and I won’t try to commentary them, you can read them yourself, but what you will see is a God who sustains all things, literally “holds them together”. That is his claim, not mine, so what I wrote was just an attempt to describe his care for what HE has made.
Ok, politics- You ask a hard question- Should we incorporate these opinions into our platform….? I would say “NO”, but realize that when we teach from the bible, as it’s written, without an agenda, we ARE making a statement that may disagree with culture. It could be perceived as “political”, but is simply teaching truth. Sometimes preachers do go too far, I would say that it does distract, dilute our true message when we do that. Good question!
You wrote: “I do believe we are overestimating our ability to affect what God has created and sustains.” I think this is very easy to contradict. One small example… look at the delicate biosphere. Animals are becoming extinct due to man’s affect on creation.
"…save our planet!" Well, excuse me, but what arrogance!”
Is it really arrogance to try and save / maintain / preserve the planet that God gave us by trying to be good stewards?”
To your very last question, NO, it’s not arrogant, there is a balance here that I think you have missed. I mention it earlier. The balance is this- on one side do all we can to be good stewards and care for what God has made. On the other side realize that God is sovereign, and will sustain this world until the day he is finished with it. BOTH are important. A knowledge of who God is and what he is like, and a knowledge of OUR responsibility. I would never dismiss my responsibility to care for God’s property.
Arrogant to say “save our planet”? Yes, for this reason- it establishes the idea that we, the creation, can destroy or save this world. It’s arrogant because it doesn’t leave room for God to be God. Balance the two and there’s great peace and great responsibility.
Ok, sorry for the confusion on the “throwing in the towel” thing, it is confusing. I guess that was a rabble rouser just stirring things up. Sorry for the confusion.
I think the areas where you may misunderstand me is in the issue of balance. I do believe, and tried to communicate, that God is in charge, but I have a stewardship. A clear understanding of both will give me great peace, and an amazing responsibility.
Thanks for the great dialogue, I hope this clears up the discussion a little more. If not, please let me know what I have missed. Thanks,
Ouch! Had a comment and lost it all. :( I think I entered the code wrong. Is there anyway you can retrieve it?
Hello,
Couldn’t help commenting on this debate you have going here. Something that might be helpful to you guys is a paper written by Dr. Richard Pratt, former seminary professor at RTS. It is entitle "Historical contingencies and Biblical predictions"
Basically, it makes the case that God's plans/judgments, etc... are sometimes dependent upon our responses to him. If we continue to disobey the warnings signs then he will allow us to ruin our planet in a short time. If we head the warnings, then he may allow us to continue on a while longer. God does this with the Israelites in the Old Testament fairly often. He will say judgment is coming, but then the prophet pleads on behalf of the people, warns them, they respond favorably, and God delays the judgment.
That’s the general idea anyway, the article is linked below. He says it better than me.
Regards,
an interested reader
Forgot the link....
http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/ric_pratt/TH.Pratt.Historical_Contingencies.pdf
Hi Mike.
Interesting article. Sounds similar to the way I feel about this stuff. It's funny how selective reporting overlooks the facts in our part of the world. The media has gone very quiet on the cold winter we are having here in Melbourne. Actually it's been very cold but there's been no snow yet so they are concentrating on the no snow part of the equation but not on the cold temperatures. As they often say; "do not let the truth get in the way of a good story."
If your a non believer here in Melbourne your almost stoned to death at dawn. Oh well that's life.
Catch you again soon down under. I have been on three months Long Service Leave. It's been fantastic. Back now and feeling very refreshed and more enthusiastic than ever. Got two members in hospital, one at home in her last days with cancer so there are plenty to pray with and care for as always which is what I love to do.
Russell.
It IS a great looking family. I try not to mess it up. :-) We're doing very, very well. I so very much miss our random office visits, though. How wonderful the time Christians can spend together.
Keep saying what you want! The Spirit will let you know how to edit. Ok. I have to say something.
These discussions are much less an issue where people do not have enough to eat. And many of those people (the poorest) are the ones piling up the most garbage. But there are far more important things than the environment. It is what I call a "luxury worry" - concerns only visited by those who have the time and energy to do so. Much of the world is just trying to get enough to eat.
While I too regard our planet as a stewardship, there are more important things. When we lived in the States, I recycled, used organic gardening products, conserved gas, fed wild animals, and grieved how poorly we have managed this planet. But that's the rub - we're managers, not owners. While we are responsible for (and will be held accountable for) caring for the creation, the Lord Jesus is the owner. About him it says, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Col 1:16-17)
He will not stop holding things together until He's ready. But the balance, as Mike said, is to remain (or become) good stewards, but to remember our place. The Lord Jesus did not die merely to redeem the planet. He died and rose again to reconcile people to Himself and as a result of that (a bonus, if you will), redeem the creation tainted by our sin. We cannot return to the Garden. For God has something better for us. He will make a NEW heaven and earth by transforming it just as He transforms us into the image of Christ.
The great commission is about people. Let us never forget that. People are and will forever be more important than any cause we may have because God has created us in His image and has done more than we can ever ask or imagine to redeem us. I cannot imagine what would be the result if we spent 1/2 or even 1/4 of the energy and resources spent 'saving the planet' on saving people. Oh, what a difference that would make.
I decided I would repost a big summary of what I lost. The logic won’t have all the dots in between. I live a very hard life will very little free time during the week. Anyway here it goes…
Mike, the Bible verses you quoted are all beautiful nuggets of gold, but all but one have to do with the creation of the world or God being evident and not really that close to the heart of the discussion here (being the damaging / destruction of the world). I also, believe in the Bible that God made the world, himself evident, and will end it in due time. I’m not arguing this.
Now the verse that possibly does is in Peter, but is this not talking about the complete destruction of the earth (meaning its very existence)? (Note: I am not a Bible scholar. It just looks that way to me. e.g. hotness and burning up of elements) The majority of people who are holding those signs, saying “Save our Planet” doubtfully are referring to the total elimination of the planet, but perhaps some are.
I appreciated your most recent post. It helped me understand your viewpoint much better.
Brandon,
My reference to the Garden was that it was something that could be “ruined” by man… I’m not doubting God’s promises or plans here. This was to (theologically) support the idea that man can ruin / affect / destroy creation / the planet, although what you wrote was beautiful and also correct.
“I cannot imagine what would be the result if we spent 1/2 or even 1/4 of the energy and resources spent 'saving the planet' on saving people. Oh, what a difference that would make.”
Actually, I would argue that there wouldn’t be a big difference made since there aren’t that many resources being spent on that political agenda in the first place (hence people waving signs for change, etc).
Often many missionaries go into their fields wanting to make the physical life better for the people just about as much as they want to “save them.” This is natural really. We don’t like to see our friends suffer. In actuality, money donated and given to people even with organizations that try and make a good economic impact like dig wells so people can get water, give them chickens that can hatch eggs, and etc in the long run don’t help.
If you want to “physically” make peoples life better. The only way to do that is to bring infrastructure, industry; an economy to their country.
anonymous,
thanks for your thoughtful words. Let me paste your last questions to me, and then answer them-
"Mike, the Bible verses you quoted are all beautiful nuggets of gold, but all but one have to do with the creation of the world or God being evident and not really that close to the heart of the discussion here (being the damaging / destruction of the world). I also, believe in the Bible that God made the world, himself evident, and will end it in due time. I’m not arguing this.
Now the verse that possibly does is in Peter, but is this not talking about the complete destruction of the earth (meaning its very existence)? (Note: I am not a Bible scholar. It just looks that way to me. e.g. hotness and burning up of elements) The majority of people who are holding those signs, saying “Save our Planet” doubtfully are referring to the total elimination of the planet, but perhaps some are."
Yes, partially true that these verses speak of God creative work, but both Romans 1 and Col. 1 speak of God's sustaining work- i.e. Col. 1:16-17 where it says that Christ "holds all things together", in Greek the word is the idea of being the "glue" that keeps all the atoms together. The very core of the atom defies our magnetic principles, so something or someone is keeping all of this together, and that is the message, in part, of these passages- that God not only created, but sustains it all until a day...2 Peter 3. There is also a passage in the Old Testament that speaks of God if one day goes missing then he's not God. He claims that he will oversee this creation until that day. Now to the day- 2 Peter does speak of a day, and you read it correctly, when he will destroy the elements themselves and create a new heaven and earth without flaw. I can't imagine what that is like, but I'm sure it will be wonderful. I wrote this post originally because I think both sides of the arguement leave something out- the secular man leaves God out, and thus must save the planet himself and the Christian leaves out his stewardship and thinks he can use the resources as he wishes because God's going to burn it all anyway. I think both are wrong, and that was the goal of my discussion. I so appreciate your thoughtful posts and questions. You have proven to be a very good thinker and a person of passion. Thanks for spending time with me, and sharing your thoughts.
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