As I mentioned earlier I am reading Chuck Colson's new book, "THE FAITH". It's a very interesting book. I'm really enjoying it. I am in the chapter now that deals with faith and what we believe both as Christians and as a culture. His writes that there are many people who call themselves Christians, but do not believe in absolute truth. In fact the statistics say that nearly 50% of Christians under 40 do not believe in absolute truth. I think the only thing you can call such a community are Christian agnostics. They believe, but they don't think anyone can know for sure (the agnostic's statement of faith.) For me this is such a strange way of thinking...to claim to be Christian, but not to believe in absolute truth. The culture has indeed affected the Christian world! They have sold the lie that truth cannot be known and many believe it....well sort of, but you can't really know for sure (sorry, couldn't resist the sarcasm.) But I read the dogmatic, confident, clear words of Jesus who said, much to our culture's frown, "I am the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father but through me." These words are dogmatic! These words demand a response- either you believe Jesus or you don't. His statement is so dogmatic, so clear, that it demands a decision and a response. It had never entered my thoughts that a person could be a Christian and not believe what the bible says. It appears our culture has mastered the art of sitting on the fence with a faith of uncertainty. Though I do love the agnostic statement of faith, "I don't know and you don't either!" Sounds like a very certain statement of faith to describe a faith of uncertainty. Strange world, isn't it?
18 comments:
you wrote..."I am the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father but through me." These words are dogmatic! These words demand a response- either you believe Jesus or you don't. His statement is so dogmatic, so clear, that it demands a decision and a response.
You are right, it does demand a resonse from us. Where you go wrong is assuming there is but one response, one way of interpretating these words. The words are not dogmatic, they are engaging, you are the one making them dogmatic becasue you believe your interpretation of them is the one and only right way.
You are free to believe wht you will, just understand there are other options, other ways of interpreting what Christianity means to each one of us.
Faith is persoanl, and each one of us interprets, responds, and lives our own life of faith.
This is more of what the "christian agnotic" is saying. And, i look forward to the day when christians spend their energy finding common ground instead of drawing dividing lines.
john
John,
It's quite funny that you would say that CHRISTIANS are drawing dividing line. It was JESUS who drew a line in the sand in his declaration.
AND, I can't possible imagine how else you could take Jesus' words. Enlighten me, please, how else could his words be interepreted? I am most curious.
Truthfully, if you don't believe what Jesus said then you are clearly stating that he is not your final authority on faith and practice.
Please, John, please tell me what other options there are...I really want to know.
I'm reading a book that talks about Christians who are agnostic. They say, "I don't know" when it comes to many issues. And that's a good thing. There is certainly a lot we don't know. But Christians are not agnostic about Christ.
In all sincerity, someone please correct me if I am in error. I do not wish to be in error. Jesus says to the Father, "This is eternal life that they may know You, the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3)
I understand agnostic to mean someone who is unwilling to commit to a belief about something, be that God or a political ideal or what have you. The root of the word is from the Greek word gnostos (to know) with the negating "a" added on. It means not to know.
That's the word Jesus uses when He says what eternal life is. "To know" the one True God. Isn't knowing necessary to believing? Isn't faith linked to knowledge?
Why does knowing the person of God make my faith impersonal?
Please, I am not jeering or trying to be funny. I'm not trying to draw dividing lines or negate common ground. I'm genuinely confused.
Mike,
You state, "Truthfully, if you don't believe what Jesus said then you are clearly stating that he is not your final authority on faith and practice."
Please don’t judge my faith or my relationship to the Christ. I do believe Jesus and he is my authority on all matters spiritual. But my faith is obviously very different than yours. You make too many assumptions, primarily that you fully understand Jesus and I don’t because I don’t think like you. You assume a literal approach to interpretation is the only option, this is where you go wrong in your dogmatics. There are other ways of interpreting the scriptures.
A simple example of a way to interpret those verses is as follows. Jesus says "no one comes to the father but by me" You interpret that to mean "no one comes to the father but by believing the dogma about Jesus, that he was born of a virgin, crucified and risen the third day for the sins of mankind, son of god, etc...". You put all your emphasis on people believing these things ABOUT JESUS.
My interpretation of those verses is that the Christ is calling people to a new life in him, or rather he in us as Paul states it, "not I but Christ in me". Unless we have him in us, unless he is shining through us, we are not of him. This is what brings us to the father, by following the Christ and allowing his love, compassion, selflessness, sacrifice etc..to be our own. He state elsewhere, "you are not worthy of me unless you pick up your cross and follow me." No one will come to the father unless their lives have been transformed into the likeness of the Christ. Its more about BEING someone than it is THINKING things about someone.
Hopefully you can see my point here, and that being tolerant to others beliefs is vitally important to a Christian in his walk with the lord.
I truly pray that the eyes of your heart be opened to the Christ in us all. And that you may find peace with your fellow Christians, even if they don’t see things like you.
John
John,
I see we have several issues here.
First, you are making assumptions about what I believe. You said, "You interpret that to mean "no one comes to the father but by believing the dogma about Jesus, that he was born of a virgin, crucified and risen the third day for the sins of mankind, son of god, etc...". You put all your emphasis on people believing these things ABOUT JESUS."
Your assumption about how I interpret this passage is a huge leap and completely incorrect.
I have not done this with your comments, why do you do that with me?
Second, you also said, "No one will come to the father unless their lives have been transformed into the likeness of the Christ. Its more about BEING someone than it is THINKING things about someone." Sorry, again I completely disagree with your conclusions. Where do you find this in the bible?
And, "Hopefully you can see my point here, and that being tolerant to others beliefs is vitally important to a Christian in his walk with the lord."
John, tolerance has nothing to do with this discussion. This is a discussion on truth, not tolerance. I set the topic and it's not tolerance, it's truth, let's stay on topic, ok?
And, "I truly pray that the eyes of your heart be opened to the Christ in us all. And that you may find peace with your fellow Christians, even if they don’t see things like you."
John, my eyes are open. BUT, you need to know that Christ is NOT in all of us. And, just so you know, I have great peace and fellowship with other believers....that fellowship and peace is based on our common faith. Again, your assumptions are incorrect and surprising, but thanks for your thoughts.....
Mike,
yes, lets stay on topic. Why did you not respond to my interpretation of those passages?
You asked... "AND, I can't possible imagine how else you could take Jesus' words. Enlighten me, please, how else could his words be interepreted? I am most curious.
Truthfully, if you don't believe what Jesus said then you are clearly stating that he is not your final authority on faith and practice."
Did i asnwer you sufficiently? did i show that there is more than one way to see things and still be "christian" and accept him as final authority as you put it? In your opinion then, would my beliefs be enough to have "common faith" with you? Or am i without christ?
john
John,
Since you specifically asked for my thoughts on your view of this view I will share them. BUT, let me state up front that I am not questioning whether you are a Christian or not. Nor am I questioning whether we could have fellowship or not. My declaration was to state plainly what Jesus said about himself. He made a bold statement that must be responded to by the world. But you saw the verse differently, so let me respond to your request to comment on your interpretation. You ask because, I think, you want to know what I think. If what I think doesn't really matter then we will be wasting each others time, but I will tell you my observations from what you wrote. Before I do that let me tell you the background these comments come from- I trusted Christ as my savior nearly 45 years ago. Immediately I became a passionate student of his word. I have read the bible hundreds of times, studied it for all these decades, went to university to be a bible student, have read hundreds of other books on the bible and spend an hour or more studying it each day. My comments come from that backgroud, ok?
Here's your view on the verse we are discussing and my thoughts-
"My interpretation of those verses is that the Christ is calling people to a new life in him, or rather he in us as Paul states it, "not I but Christ in me". Unless we have him in us, unless he is shining through us, we are not of him."
John, you are jumping to application here. You are basically saying that if I can't see Christ in your life you are not saved. That is Lordship salvation at its core. I do not believe that. Salvation is by faith alone and I may not see it's fruit for a long time. Suppose I had been a very wicked man, but came to faith. There would be a change, but much of the change we want to see to say I am a Christian may not grow for quite a while, but I am a believer and saved by faith alone even if no one ever sees any fruit in my life.
"This is what brings us to the father, by following the Christ and allowing his love, compassion, selflessness, sacrifice etc..to be our own."
I don't agree with this. What brings us to the father is faith alone in Christ alone. Nothing else and nothing more.
"He state elsewhere, "you are not worthy of me unless you pick up your cross and follow me." No one will come to the father unless their lives have been transformed into the likeness of the Christ. Its more about BEING someone than it is THINKING things about someone."
John, you sound like you have been in a reformed church community. You wrote, "No one will come to the father unless their lives have been transformed into the likeness of the Christ." This is backwards...I come to the father BECAUSE I have been transformed by the work of Christ when I believed. It's not my work that brings me to the father at all, it's Christ's work on my behalf. I bring nothing other than to believe.
more to follow....
more....
You finished with these words, "Its more about BEING someone than it is THINKING things about someone."
I would change your words to say this- It's all about believing someone than it is thinking things about someone.
Now, John, you can clearly see that I view things differently than you do, but you ask, "Can we have fellowship?" Yes, of course! I think we would have a great time together, but it doesn't mean we have to agree on theology or even come from the same theological view to love each other and fellowship. I think we would have a grand time together.
Let me close with this comment- I think your views reflect a reformed theology with a hint of lordship salvation thrown in. I do not believe those views are correct, but it wouldn't keep up from some wonderful times of fellowship as Christians. I would encourage you to read the passage I started with again and just look at Jesus' words. Don't bring any other views with you and look at his words. I do believe they are profound words that call the world to a decision and that was my focus in the original blog post.
Thanks again, John, for the opportunity to visit on these things.
Mike,
Good, I am glad that you are able to see through our differences and realize Christianity means different things to different people and that we can all agree to disagree and still be on the same team. My original response to your post was aimed at this, showing that horses of different colors are still horses. I consider myself to be a Christian and an agnostic in many respects, so that’s why I responded to you. I wanted to show that one size does not fit all when it comes to defining what a Christian is or is not, and that the content of our faith can be different. We both will say the Christ I assume, but that means different things to each of us I also assume. The reason why I consider myself a Christian agnostic is because while truth is absolute in its perfected self, we do not have the ability to view it in its naked absoluteness. We can only see it relatively. By definition, it is infinite and we are finite. So this is why I think those passages can say more than one thing to different people, and also why I brought tolerance into this conversation.
john
So, John, you made your point. I'm sure you feel vindicated, but did you read anything I said? It's clear your agenda was to get me to acknowledge your views, but you have failed to extend me the same grace. I saw no Christian love extended, just a debate to win. You might make note of that for further discussions. Just an observation.
Mike,
I am truly hurt by your comments. I thought we were trying to have meaningful dialogue and come to see one another’s views and respect them as mature people and Christians would do.
I don’t need vindication, nor do I view this a debate to win. You might think like that, but I certainly don’t. I actually love people and want to connect with them, and your comments towards me make me out to be a villain and that hurts.
Is this how you pastor? Belittle and vilify your victims until they bend to your will?
There you go; I have stooped to your level. Your hard heartedness has affected me, do you feel better now? If you can’t win, then you drag people down with you I see.
Don’t forget it is you who made the original post that was antagonistic towards Christian agnostics. Just like I have seen you do towards just about every spiritual tradition on the planet, you trash them and toss your stones and then want to play the kind loving role and act as if you are the victim! c'mon! You have serious heart issues and i will pray that the lord opens your eyes to the damage you are doing to poeple and that he softens your heart.
john
John,
As a Christian brother is that really what you want to say?
mike, no, i tried to gently bring our conversation about, speaking the truth in love. but you wouldnt have it, you had to get one last jab in. So, i had to speak the truth with a little more directness. And yes, i really do believe what i told you and wish you would listen instead of deflecting back on to me and avoiding accountability for yourself. (that seems to be a favorite MO of yours)
it really saddens me that you take this approach. Again, i will pray for you as i have done for a long time now.
john
If I could comment here...
Mike is maybe the nicest guy I know. Certainly one of the kindest and most gracious. Sometimes his comments come across harsh but that is not his heart. Please be careful how you judge this dear brother.
I know I come at this from a bias, but it seems that Mike asked questions that you (John) never answered. That's sort of beside the point, however.
I'm not trying to be silly here, but I don't understand what you want from Mike. If tolerance is what you desire, why are you not tolerant of his view?
I love people and people come in all shapes and forms be it physically, emotionally, etc. And I sincerely appreciate your desire for Christian's to find common ground. But from your comments, it seems that faith is really nebulous, that we can't really know anything at all. If we can't find common ground in Christ, what are we doing? Am I understand you wrongly? If I am, I don't want to say something about you that you don't believe so please correct me.
I believe, and am certain of it, that faith in Jesus is the only way we can be brought into a relationship with a Holy God. I don't the fact that such a belief excludes other religions, but I didn't make the rules. In order to believe otherwise I have to ignore a whole bunch of the Bible, not just interpret it differently.
If we're both Christians, don't we need to believe the same things about Christ, as least on the "what it means to be saved" level? I don't doubt your love for Jesus or the sincerity of your heart, but I am, with all respect, honestly confused as to what you believe about Jesus if we are unable to know anything at all about eternal things.
Again, please take this as an honest request - I would like to understand what you believe - I just can't seem to figure it out.
grace and peace -
John,
If my comments caused you to sin, I am sorry. I ask your forgiveness.
If my thoughts in this discussion frustrated you and made you mad, I am sorry. That was not my intention.
If, somehow, I made you sin by trying to voice my views, I am sorry.
I do wish we could get some coffee and visit about this, I think that we would have a great time together. I still believe that what I am saying is true and will not change that simply to be tolerant, but if sin was the result of this visit in your life, I am sorry.
It is impossible to read emotion into text like this. It should be a place to have a dialogue without reading emotion into it, but I know that does not happen. I never have the intent here of being harsh. I am not a harsh person, but I am passionate about what I believe and will continue to be so. I do have to say that you made some leaps in your comments about me that are not correct. I encourage you to address those in some way.
Thanks for being part of this discussion.
You have a gift mike, i have never encountered someone who can put their blinders on, evade their personal issues, and project on to anoher with such ease. You cast your stones, and then cry foul when they get cast back at you. This is getting comical. You dont want to hear what i am saying obviously. you remind me of a drug addict in a way. They never admit they have a problem, and they always blame it on someone else.
You kept saying "if i caused you to sin". Well, yes you did, and i sure hope you understand what that means. it means you bring out the worst in someone, it means YOUR sin has drug me down to its level. i am sure you are thinking "i didnt sin". yes, your ego and your hard heartedness is your sin, and it caused me to stumble. Thats something you should really think about.
john
wow.
So I guess you're not going to address my question, John?
Brandon, your questions ring so true. "Isn't knowing necessary to believing?" "Isn't faith linked to knowledge?"
To believe is to trust. If you're going to put your trust in something you need to know about it and to know you must learn/read. "Faith comes from listening to this message of good news-the Good News about Christ."(Romans 10:17 NLT)
Mr. Messerli, I for one enjoy your dialogue contrary to what others think. I have only seen the truth spoken in love on this blog and commend you for it. It's too bad when others twist our words, lash out and misjudge our hearts.
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